Democrats against due process

"What's this 'due process' people keep talking about?" (Gabriella Demczuk / The New York Times)

“What’s this ‘due process’ people keep talking about?” (Gabriella Demczuk / The New York Times)

It turns out, the problem isn’t that Republicans won’t restrict gun sales but that Democrats insist on trampling due process.

Four gun bills were defeated in the U.S. Senate on Monday night. This couldn’t have surprised anyone. But it was revealing nonetheless, as it laid bare who are the “extremists” on this issue.

Republican senators voted for a measure that would have made it easier to keep guns out of terrorists’ hands. For all the hue and cry from the left since the massacre this month at a gay nightclub in Orlando, you might have thought they’d have been trying to further eliminate barriers to gun ownership. But no, all they wanted was a measure to ensure innocent people aren’t deprived of their rights.

The bill sponsored by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, would have delayed gun sales to people on a terrorist watch list by 72 hours, giving the government time to persuade a judge to deny the sale. Both the terrorist watch list and the no-fly list, which Democrats have also targeted for denial of gun sales, are famously flawed documents. They not only have included the names of people who aren’t threats to the country, but have led to the flagging of people who weren’t really on the list: the late Sen. Ted Kennedy, for instance. Anyone who has been the subject of a bureaucratic foul-up — a roster that is surely longer than the terrorist watch list and no-fly list — should understand the perils of putting the burden of proof on the person who’s been deprived of his rights. As should anyone who understands the Bill of Rights even beyond the Second Amendment.

So why do Sens. Chris Murphy, Dianne Feinstein and other Democrats insist on their constitutionally backward “solution”? I can think of two possible reasons. First, maybe they don’t consider it a violation of due process because they don’t think you really have the right to own a gun. Remember, they are not talking merely about blocking the sales of “assault weapons,” or some similarly scary-sounding but made-up category of firearms. Their measure would have applied even to sales of those guns Democrats insist they’d never even think of trying to ban. Uh huh.

Another possible reason is they’re brazenly throwing an election-year bone to their base. After all, if Democrats are so passionate about doing whatever they can to prevent terrorists from getting their hands on weapons, why would they oppose a longer waiting period and the opportunity for the government to stop the sale completely? Maybe because it would resolve an issue they’d prefer to keep flogging from now until November?

Contrary to the irresponsibly overheated rhetoric from Murphy in particular, no one wants terrorists to have access to weapons. It’s just that one side in this debate doesn’t want to forfeit innocent Americans’ rights in the process.

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69 comments
skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

Love it when Kyle and the GOP /NRA lackeys get so concerned about due process rights of possible terrorists and gun owners but could care less about due process rights of the victims and their families.

RafeHollister
RafeHollister

The Dem's liberal fascism has been called out by the ACLU of all groups.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/washington-markup/use-error-prone-and-unfair-watchlists-not-way-regulate-guns-america


Our nation’s watchlisting system is error-prone and unreliable because it uses vague and overbroad criteria and secret evidence to place individuals on blacklists without a meaningful process to correct government error and clear their names. 

That’s why we have argued that if the government chooses to blacklist people, the standards it uses must be appropriately narrow, the information it relies on must be accurate and credible, and its use of watchlists must be consistent with the presumption of innocence and the right to due process. This is not what the government is doing, though. Instead, as we explained to the Senate using the No Fly List as an example:

The government contends that it can place Americans on the No Fly List who have never been charged let alone convicted of a crime, on the basis of prediction that they nevertheless pose a threat (which is undefined) of conduct that the government concedes “may or may not occur.” Criteria like these guarantee a high risk of error and it is imperative that the watchlisting system include due process safeguards—which it does not. In the context of the No Fly List, for example, the government refuses to provide even Americans who know they are on the List with the full reasons for the placement, the basis for those reasons, and a hearing before a neutral decision-maker. 


JohnB
JohnB

Funny how the GOP only cares about due process and the protection of civil liberties when the issue regards guns. Didn't hear much concern when the topic was indefinite detention at 

Guantanamo Bay, torture at Abu Graib, blanket surveillance of e-mails and phone calls. And to make the irony even sweeter, yesterday the Senate Republicans pushed legislation calling for more secretive, warrantless surveillance. Ah, the cognitive dissonance abounds, but I guess when you serve the NRA instead of the American public, noses must be held and things must be done.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

Your party is actively working to dismantle the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. You have zero standing to criticize Real Americans.

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

Resident demagogue won't tell you that second amendment rights he and NRA   fantasize about were created by a deceased member of SCOTUS from thin air . Recent decisions have narrowed individual right under second amendment  to merely self defense with a gun that will not be used for mass murder, Safety rights of the public are paramount to individual rights. Only party that has distorted second amendment wording and rights is GOP. Activist judges have a short shelf life.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

@lvg

It's a sad commentary on public education and Democrat "thought" that leftist believe rights come from government.

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

We don't let any American drive a car or truck until he/she has proven that he will be a safe operator.  We make them purchase liability insurance so the rest of us will not have to pay for the damage they may cause.  Guns cause more human damage than automobiles in the United States - therefore each gun nut should have to prove his sanity, knowledge of gun laws, freedom from substance abuse, absence of criminal record, and register and license the gun annually.  No big deal.  Kyle - get a life.

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@Lil_Barry_Bailout I oppose the psychotic, neurotic, substance abuser, criminal, and bullies from having guns.  Do you fit that description?

stogiefogey
stogiefogey

Americans are arming themselves at an unprecedented rate. During the 12 months from May 2015 through April 2016 the FBI conducted 25.6 million firearm-related background (NICS) checks.

At that rate Murphy and Feinstein will soon be the only people not packing heat.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

"Another possible reason is they’re brazenly throwing an election-year bone to their base."

-----------

True.

Their base isn't very bright, and even those few who know what "due process" is and where to find it in Our Constitution don't care about it.  They just want what they want, Constitution be damned.

Pretty much the definition of "liberal fascism".

Eye wonder
Eye wonder

Kyle,

Does your disingenuousness know no bounds?*

*asked rhetorically

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

As of this week there is no constitutional right to buy and own an assault weapon like ones used in recent mass shootings because the Supreme Court upheld a Second circuit decision that says NY and Conn. can ban assault weapons like an AR-15  due to the safety of the public overriding any individual rights to own such weapons for self protection.Thus now that the representative of the GOP and NRA on the Court is dead, the preamble of the second amendment is back in effect which refers to the "security of the states". Thank you cons for a balanced court.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

@lvg

The Supreme Court did not uphold any such decision.

You're not very good at this.

MarkVV
MarkVV

The concern of the Republicans about the right of people to be “packing” is so touching. With the terrorist watch and no-fly lists, they always pull up the name of Sen. Ted Kennedy as a proof of widespread foul ups. But the reality is a) those lists still amount to a tiny fraction of the population, b) it is likely that a high percentage of people on those lists are there for good reason, and allowing them an easy access to guns is risky.

I wish the Republicans showed as much concern about other rights of the much more numerous people – like the right of minorities to vote. 

RafeHollister
RafeHollister

@MarkVV RED HERRING ALERT, no one has ever produced an individual who was denied the right to vote, if he/she was eligible and registered.

RafeHollister
RafeHollister

@RonMexico @RafeHollister @MarkVV Why don't you provide a name and a link?  There are more people who have voted numerous times in the same election, than there are who were denied the right to vote.  Meloweese Richardson for one.

MarkVV
MarkVV

@RafeHollister @RonMexico @MarkVV And how would you know that? Have you counted them? Please supply us with those numbers and documentation.

And anyway, when I wrote about the measures Republicans use to make voting more difficult, a literate person would know the difference  from "denying the right to vote."

bu22
bu22

@MarkVV @RafeHollister @RonMexico Its incredibly easy and far easier (with absentee voting) than it was 20 years ago.  Democrats know that lazy, uninformed people tend to vote for them, so they want to make it as easy as possible for them to vote.  Democrats also know that those rules they want allow their inner city machines to rig elections as they have in the past.

MarkVV
MarkVV

@xxxzzz @MarkVV @RafeHollister @RonMexico “Democrats know that lazy, uninformed people tend to vote for them, so they want to make it as easy as possible for them to vote. 

Apparently, you want to make the access to voting dependent on what kind of people they are (and whether they are “your kind of people”).  I believe we have seen that kind of thinking and action in the past we try to forget. 

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

You can clear it up for us, then. Are poor people and minorities competent enough to acquire a state-issued ID?

I say they are.

TicTacs
TicTacs

Next year will be different, get your crying towels out.

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

Supreme Court ruled yesterday that there is no due process or fundamental constitutional right to own an assault weapon in Connecticut. Florida decided that doctors have no free speech right to discuss gun safety with their patients. Three judge panel of 11th circuit ruled that was constitutional.


Lil Barry keeps creating  violations of constitutional rights that he is pulling out of his rear.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

The Supreme Court made no such ruling. And, according to you, the 11th circuit ruled in favor of free speech. If you had been paying attention, you would know that, as a conservative, I'm in favor of conserving Our Constitutionally-guaranteed liberties.

Democrats see Our Constitution as an impediment to their liberal fascist scheming against the American people.

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

@Lil_Barry_Bailout upholding a Republican/ NRA statute from Florida that penalizes  doctors for discussing guns with their patients supports the right of free speech??So NRA gets to decide limits of  doctor patient communication in Lil Barry's interpretation of the Constitution??

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

@Lil_Barry_Bailout @lvg And you blame the Dems for GOP violations of the Bill of Rights with your  fabrications of second amendment rights.Just like your hero, Trump, you just make sh-t up to see if it will stick on the wall.

RafeHollister
RafeHollister

Maybe our Big Government can put obese folks depending on medicaid, medicare, or Obamacare on the No Big Gulp list and save the taxpayers some money and make a dent in those astronomical rate increases for Obamacare. 

RafeHollister
RafeHollister

The no fly list is in itself unconstitutional.  The Constitution requires that people be convicted of crimes before rights can be taken.  Has this "list" been approved by the courts or just imposed by the President?  What secret list is next? 


Secret lists, where the people do not know how they  got on, how to get off, that they are even on the list,  or who puts you on, are something from prewar Germany or Stalin's Russia.  Why is it that these folks are so dangerous they can't fly or buy a gun, but they can ride the train or bus, visit the WH or Capitol, buy and drive a 3000 pound weapon, and buy pressure cookers and fertilizer.  This just makes no sense.  How can anyone be against due process.


The other sad thing is the lap dog media reports that 4 times the Senate voted against any additional gun restrictions.  The Senate is controlled by the GOP.  They leave it there, knowing the no nothings will assume the GOP opposed every amendment.  The GOP is the worst political party of all time for educating the voters and making their case, they just adverse assumptions lie.  


If the Dems really believed that terrorist buying guns was an imminent threat they would have taken what the GOP offered, instead of holding out to make a political point. 

MarkVV
MarkVV

@RafeHollister “The no fly list is in itself unconstitutional.


Please submit the article or amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the right to fly.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

Of the first five amendments to Our Constitution, Democrats currently have major heartburn with all but the Third.

Keep your liberal fascism off our liberties, Democrats.

EliasDenny
EliasDenny

Kyle  I'm sure you looked at the three other bills the Democrats put into play.

RoadScholar
RoadScholar

I guess the 49 dead and 52 wounded got due process. Just like the kids in NE , the movie theater, San Bernadino.....and I guess they all got "the pursuit of happiness" !?

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

As much as my AR-15 has to do with it.

Keep your liberal fascism off our freedoms.

Caius
Caius

The 4 senate votes were about the presidential election as we all know.  Curious partnerships jumped up out of the rhetoric.  Senate dems and the Republican presumptive nominee in bed together on the no fly.


Speaking of due process, or the lack of, one gets on the no fly list without a hint of due process.  Where's the bill requiring a judge's order to get put on the list?


Look brothers and sisters, our national culture made the decision decades ago that the constitutional rights of gun ownership and of having an abortion were more important than human life.  And that fact is not going to change anytime soon.  Terrorist can have their weapons of choice and pregnant ladies right exercise their reproductive rights.


So let's move on.

Lil_Barry_Bailout
Lil_Barry_Bailout

@Caius

IIRC, there have been rulings that established a "right to travel".  I have no idea whether that means there's a right to travel by air.

skruorangeclown
skruorangeclown

Glad to see the GOP has such deep concerns over  constitutional rights of terrorists on the no fly list. They can be restricted from flying but god forbid someone messes with their right to a gun.


Leader of GOP wants to restrict all travel rights of anyone with a Muslim background and punish the families of terrorists along with torture. For him due process does not exist in the Constitution. Slight image problem there - you think?


And I am glad that Trump, Kyle and  GOP made sure yesterday to give Mr. Al Bagdadi and ISIS the publicity they crave and need to recruit more lone wolves in the US- nice job cons!


Where the Boston, Chattanooga, San Bernadino and Orlando crazies traveled before they became radicalized is of no consequence to the GOP.Just make sure you can say  ISIS and Obama is responsible and forget about who really is preaching radical Islam in S____ owned mosques in the US.


And of course we cannot mention that S----A--- name in the context of radical Islam and terror, Can we?

GB101
GB101

@lvg Glad to see the GOP has such deep concerns over  constitutional rights of terrorists on the no fly list. They can be restricted from flying but god forbid someone messes with their right to a gun.


You need to re-read what you wrote and re-think too.  A person who is put on a no fly list is not necessarily a terrorist.  Do you really favor limiting people's freedom because a government employee puts them on a list?  


I am not sure what criteria are used to create these lists, but  from what I read I am confident their is no trial or hearing.